The Race and Wealth Podcast Network

PREACH 12 Reparations - the least you can do

July 16, 2020 The Race & Wealth Team on how to close the racial wealth divide through art, media, policy, literacy, and action
The Race and Wealth Podcast Network
PREACH 12 Reparations - the least you can do
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The Race and Wealth Podcast Network
PREACH 12 Reparations - the least you can do
Jul 16, 2020
The Race & Wealth Team on how to close the racial wealth divide through art, media, policy, literacy, and action

In this episode we talk about reparations with Dedrick Asante-Muhammad.  What are reparations?  Reparations have taken on a lot of different shapes, in a lot of different places.  It really does get to this idea of repairing something of a social wrong and usually with an economic focus.  A huge component of reparations has to be how do we redistribute those races sources to get past that inequality that we've had for centuries. It really explains racial wealth divide.  We need reparations to help us get past the racial wealth divide, which isn't on the path of closing. It's real.

Show Notes Transcript

In this episode we talk about reparations with Dedrick Asante-Muhammad.  What are reparations?  Reparations have taken on a lot of different shapes, in a lot of different places.  It really does get to this idea of repairing something of a social wrong and usually with an economic focus.  A huge component of reparations has to be how do we redistribute those races sources to get past that inequality that we've had for centuries. It really explains racial wealth divide.  We need reparations to help us get past the racial wealth divide, which isn't on the path of closing. It's real.

Dyalekt :

To make you feel safe, a couple people had to get displaced. But right up the block, an unarmed black man got shot. And to keep his job, another brother had to cut up his locks and you scared I'll force you to PC man, you must be on PCP. I don't know much, but I know one thing. You gotta preach to the choir so they know what to sing. I don't know much, but I know one things, you got to preach to the chior so they know what to sing. I don't know much, but I know one things, you got to preach to the chior so they know what to sing. Racism is wilding out and before you load up your Nick Cannons and get in the ring preach to the choir so they know what to sing. This is the preach the choir podcast, we explore how culture affects the racial wealth divide and vice versa, recorded at our place, his place, your place with Dedrick Asante-Muhammad, Cheif of Race, Wealth and Community at NCRC. Pamela Capalad, CFP and owner of brunch of budget and Dyalekt. Preach to the Choir is part of the Race and Wealth Podcast Network. Welcome everybody. Today we get really real. Here are your hosts, Pam and Dedrick.

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC :

Hi Dedrick. We are excited to see you.

Dedrick Asante-Muhammad :

Yeah, I'm still learning how to do these things. I was trying to do it through my laptop and couldn't figure it out so

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC :

Oh, no laptop on Instagram.

Dyalekt :

I appreciate the energy already in the room.

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC :

Yes, reparations now. Fight the Power. I hear you. Yes, I'm so down for all of that. We're going to talk about reparations. We're going to talk about the Case for Reparations. How reparations is the least you can do. Dedrick, I know you've been talking about this and writing about this for a long time. You see articles from like 2008 that you're writing about it?

Dyalekt :

Well, I don't know if you know this, but like reparations have kind of been due for a while.

Dedrick Asante-Muhammad :

Old timers were writing about it when I was a young kid now it's kind of a, you know, an ongoing thing. And yeah, I had opportunity in 2008 was interesting because I had an opportunity, there was a woman named Katrina Brown, and she did a documentary on how she discovered her family out of New England was descended from the top slave owner in the country. At that time, it was really highlighting traces of the trade was a PBS documentary, she had me do some research on that. So that was great opportunity to look at those issues and move it beyond the south, but into the north as well.

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC :

Yeah, no, I love it. Can we start with like a super basic question, what are reperations?

Dedrick Asante-Muhammad :

What is reparations? You know, reparations has taken a lot of different shapes, a lot of different places. I highlighted You know, I think it really does get to this idea of repair, right of repairing something of a social wrong and usually with an economic focus, even though like my one of the most known about kind of reparations would be reparations for European Jews after world war two for the Holocaust. And there really there was an economic component, obviously, of what happened to Jewish people in Europe and property was taken away these types of things. But you know, I would argue it wasn't as central the economics of it as it was, I think, for African Americans, in particular, Native Americans were African Americans were literally made into wealth to develop more wealth and became, you know, well, I think it was the persecution of just rabid discrimination against Jewish people that there was economic repair. And I'm just comparing these two things, just saying I think even economic repair makes even more sense for what happened to African Americans and Native American in this country that was driven yeah, by prejudice but driven I think more so by economic concentration of wealth and resources at the expense of people. So I think, you know, a huge component of reparations has to be how do we redistribute those races sources to get past that inequality that we've had for centuries. And, you know, this fits perfectly into this whole racial wealth divide space. And I think it really explains racial wealth divide. And I think, you know, we need reparations to help us get past the racial wealth divide, which isn't on the path of closing. It's really grown.

Dyalekt :

Yeah, the thing that you said about the Holocaust and reparations, I think it's really important to think about even when the issue is social is, at its heart is a social issue. It still is necessary for economic recompense, because there's going to be that issue, you know, the discrimination caused, you know, not only economic hardship, but like physical displacement, and the only way they're going to repair that or like the base of the way they're going to repair that that was economics. And then when you talk about black Americans in our situation, not only was it a discriminatory thing where people were kept from having things but also just on a purely economic business tip wealth was generated for other people and they have not reckoned with that wealth they have built I don't know, if you want to say amorally, illegally now, you know.

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC :

Totally well and I see numbers too that people have tried to calculate how much money how much wealth was actually generated on the backs of slave labor. Right. And I feel like I've seen numbers upwards of like $4 trillion, or something that was created just like for the economy and for like the white,

Dyalekt :

Like 4 Bezos. Yeah. ,

Dedrick Asante-Muhammad :

Well in our most recent paper, white supremacy is the pre existing condition, we look at wealth levels, and you know, did the back of the envelope estimate that it would take another $10 trillion of wealth for African Americans to have wealth that would be equal to their demographic meaning like African Americans are 13% of the population but only have a think it's about 2% of the wealth of the country. So we have to increase black wealth by 10 trillion for African Americans to have 13 percent of the wealth ,

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC :

Whoa. Okay, I want to repeat that stat. So Americans make up 13% of the country and only have 2% of the country's wealth

Dedrick Asante-Muhammad :

About that. That is correct. And we would need another $10 trillion for African Americans to have in order to, you know, have 13% of the wealth of this country. So, yes,

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC :

Compound interest.

Dyalekt :

When you think about how much wealth is in this country, because like, what I think one of the stumbling blocks for reparations for the layperson, right, is they hear about it, and then you say something like 10 trillion, I can't fathom 10 trillion sounds like more money than we could possibly ever give to anybody. So a lot of folks would just be like 10 trillion. Oh, sorry, we can't pull that off. Let's forget it.

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC :

What does that come out to on average per person? Is there a number for that? I'm so curious, cuz I'm like, because I feel like when you divide it out per person, probably a really reasonable number, right? Because if you're talking about closing the wealth gap, The What is it? You had a really great stat at the top of one of your articles that the average white family has the median wealth is $147,000, which is 41 times the wealth of the average black family. The median wealth of black family is $3600. So to give every black American like, hundred thousand, $150,000 doesn't seem unreasonable, because that would close the wealth gap and kept people up to today.

Dyalekt :

Well, and remember this I think also COVID helps out because trillions just got dropped.

Dedrick Asante-Muhammad :

No, that's that's put forward is that that seems trillions do sound like a ridiculous number. But up until a few months ago, where within three months, we just without taxing anybody or what have you. We pulled together a package depending on how you estimated 3 trillion to $6 trillion. In a couple of months, you have COVID. So clearly, resources are found when needed. And the reason for the big difference is that there's, you know, how much money might be leveraged for lending, you know, like a 2 trillion or more real money 6 trillion. You look at leveraging?

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC :

Well, I recently saw something that wealth has gotten even more concentrated during COVID. Now 8 billionaires own half of the country's wealth, eight people in this country own half of the country's wealth. So it's not even that we're trying to take money away from everyone. We just probably Jeff Bezos doesn't need to be a trillionaire.

Dyalekt :

With the bailout everybody, definitely right.

Dedrick Asante-Muhammad :

In the report, we highlight some things that could be taxation to help redistribute to the concentrated wealth, but also too there's a you know, it's getting a little more economically wonky, but there is a theory out there in economics that actually, federal government deficits don't matter unless you are causing inflation. But if you're not causing inflation, and you're investing in something to the economy, that actually helps grow the economy, the deficit will take care of itself. And so, the idea that we have to actually find this amount of trillions of dollars to actually make us there is way to do it. You could just say, Well, if whites have $140,000 - $150,000 median wealth, well, we're gonna, you know, cut that in half, and give that to others. That's one way you could do it. Or you could try to build up people's wealth closer to that level. And and in an op-ed that I should be releasing next week, it's titled African Americans are missing $10 trillion. Well, you know, what I propose is that if there was, you know, and again, to me, this is just part of it. We can spend a lot of time on it. But I think, you know, oftentimes, reparations has just been the financial I mean, you know, again, going back to European jewelry a lot of people saw supporting the state and creation of an independent state of Israel has that as well as cost museums all across the country. You know, these are the institutions to help people remember what happened to it doesn't happen again. So there are other aspects, you know of it, but not so if you're saying, and I'm Michael Moore in his movie, wow, what his most recent movies looked at reparations and how, like throughout Germany, you have all of these Holocaust memorials all throughout. So that's an important piece, but the Financial piece I would also argue that you don't give all of a sudden African Americans $200,000 one time payout, because that's not the best way to build wealth, I argue that you should really do something like and again, just doesn't solve everything, but something like $20,000 a year for 20 years, because really, wealth is most strongly built over time and having a consistent level of income. I guess, when you first get that money, right, you're gonna be gonna be paying some debt, you know, you'll see some opportunities to be able to make a couple mistakes, but then you can time to build it and as you paid off your debt, now you can use this money for investments and growth and these types of things. So there needs to be a long term sustained investment that is substantial.

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC :

I'm really glad that you brought that up, because I feel like when people think of reparations, it's like, oh, you're just gonna give people this huge amount of money. And I've heard the arguments people like, well, if you don't have the right money management skills, then it's all just gonna come out anyway, whatever it is, right. And I think that,

Dyalekt :

you know, given that plenty of that is housing people's prejudice, yeah,

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC :

prejudices, personal responsibility, rhetoric, all of that, but also this idea of being able to make mistakes along the way and not blowing it right and not losing $200,000 in the process. I think that when a lot of other people are given the opportunity to build wealth, it is one of those like building wealth, building on something that already exists, having a setback and like making a mistake, and then being able to like come back from that setback because you're not all the way back to zero.

Dyalekt :

What's funny about that argument that people will say is like, Oh, it's other stuff. And all that leading to be like, it's too complicated. Like, folks don't do this already. I mean, we've done this work. You've done this work with EPA in the chat here. Just dropping a whole bunch

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC :

of college education, entrepreneurship grants financial aid, it doesn't just have to be money, right doesn't just have to be big. And I want to shout this line out, being

Dyalekt :

able to make mistakes is so key. That's what we were talking about equality just like social, economic, all that stuff. We are looking for the ability for black folks to be mediocre too. To take risks to pivot all of that.

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC :

How many mediocre white men are in college right now? Yeah,

Dyalekt :

well, no distant, mediocre people. Everybody shouldn't have to be in first place to get a living where they're happy.

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC :

Why do you have to be the best because your POC be the top 10% of whatever it is?

Dedrick Asante-Muhammad :

Because again, mediocre is middle right. So that's always most of us as well. We're not all in the top 1% both of us are mediocre. So you know in that is, again, like we don't frame it in this way. But what America has bragged about for its economy has been a strong american middle class, meaning for the mediocre, there was prosperity, wealth, financial security. And that's what he bragged about. But it's never been true for most black Americans or Latino Americans, because we never had those opportunities to, you know, build that wealth. And that's the thing is to have some wealth gives you enough money to be financially secure, make some mistakes, and have some success. Everyone makes mistakes, right? wealthy people make mistakes all the time, they blow millions dollars, they blow billions of dollars. But the key is they can get more millions, you know, due to pivot and do something different and move forward. And that's again, 20. Some people like to take $20,000 too little right. And it's just, you know, again, that's not the end all be all, but I do something something that would be go out to all the community and I would think for those who are under I would say 25. It should go into an individual development account that is open at 20 that's released that 25 so so it's actually multi generational. So we got it from 20-25 to 20-45. Some kids will just start getting their accounts in 2045, right, because they don't have access to it. So, you know, you have a multi generational effect of wealth building.

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC :

I love it, give everyone a trust fund, that's exactly what you described, you're like, Hey, you get a little bit of money right now and make some mistakes. You can fuck it up a little when you're in your 20s while you experiment. And then as time goes on, and you learn more, and you understand more, and you have that safety net, you can go back to it, I want to go back to the idea of middle class of mediocrity because mediocre has become such a negative thing, right? It's become such a stigma to be in the middle. And I feel like we've talked about this before on the show this idea of the American dream and what it was in the 50s and 60s to what it is now and the the kind of the the devolvement of it from everyone gets to have a home and take care of their family and go to college and be able to take a vacation and make a living wage. Right. That was the American dream. That was I go from working class to middle class and unable to have some leisure time and what we found as wealth has become more and more concentrated is the idea of the American dream has become, I want to be in the top 1% I also want to be a billionaire, right? There's so much thoughts about it. I'm the winner. I'm the one the American dream is to, like, make millions of dollars and like be at the top when that's not the reality. Thats what happens, but it's become the rhetoric, right?

Dedrick Asante-Muhammad :

Like people say, you know, oh, if we do this regulation, it'll stop, you know, the elite from becoming more elite. But again, the strength of the American economy has been the fact that most Americans are able to have some type of financial security. And again, I think you're part of the shift to the racializing of this, as, as most Americans become people of color, and you're having, you know, Latinos already about 18% of the population, their median wealth for 2016 was only like $6,300 or something like that. So that's not a strong middle class economy. You know, when if most countries have a median wealth of below $10,000. Reperatoins is also part of the reinvestment in recreation America has to do in order to have a strong middle class. Right?

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC :

Well, because they knew they had to do and after World War Two. The government recognized that a middle class needs to be built and needed to be subsidized. And they did it for white Americans, which is how a middle class was formed. It wasn't because everyone suddenly pulled themselves up by their bootstraps. Right?I love this. We need to shift from a zero sum mentality. Exactly.

Dyalekt :

Yeah. Guys, that's a great question. A lot of good stuff. Warren Buffett losing money in here and you think that offering reparations, but also increase inflation? And if then those people who are poor would get cut from programs that they're dependent on? That's usually what happens. That's when a lot of the,

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC :

Like universal basic income is what Andrew Yang wanted to do. He was like, give everyone money but cut all the social programs. See, yeah,

Dedrick Asante-Muhammad :

Yeah. And clearly, that shouldn't happen, right? No, like you should be able to one point you didn't even get into detail 20,000 should be tax free. The 20,000 again, one thing I like about keeping it to 25 is it should not be factored in into a, you know, loans or the financial aid or these types of things that, you know, if you're still making a, you know, very little bit of money, still should have opportunities for the social service programs that everybody else, you know, the $20,000 you between thousand dollars, in addition to what type of programs you deserve. And again, you know, the idea of free college, you know, I would put forward. Well, I think, probably free college for everybody. Right? And there should be free college for everybody plus the reparations because I think to some people want to start mixing the broad economic reforms that the entire country needs, which is correct. I mean, we do need that. But we also need a specific repair and acknowledgement of what was done to African Americans, I would argue for Native Americans rights means that one or the other, it's both those things we need some broad base, Bernie Sanders socialist programs as well as straight race specific black, I would say Native American reparation. Like, morally, I don't understand how we could be against that, like, clearly these are great wrongs. When are we going to substantively invest in and address you know those things by themselves not to say, Oh, we have a welfare program for anyone who's poor, that's not addressing African American slavery, thats saying, we're doing a program supposed to be universal for people.

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC :

Right. Well, I think that's the big thing, too. I want to address the inflation thing too, I mean, that is a big piece of it. And Diedrich, you mentioned it briefly at the beginning that this wouldn't affect inflation. And I think that that's been kind of the big like, I've heard people kind of rumbling about it with the COVID stuff, and with all of the government subsidies and things like that, and the big emergency acts, and I want us to remember 2008, which wasn't very long ago, right. And when the government also pumped trillions of dollars into the economy right. And inflation in that time was about 2 to 3%. On average, like what it's supposed to be we didn't have hyperinflation for the last 10 years inflation and go wild for the last 10 years. People speculate that was gonna happen in 2008 2009. But that's not what happened, right. Instead, what happened was that the economy like wildfire economy, the economy went up, I think for the longest period of time in history, we had the longest

Dedrick Asante-Muhammad :

Longest recovery or something like that

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC :

Longest recovery, a lot of just like prosperity. But the problem is the prosperity happened on the corporate level.

Dyalekt :

If you've been listening to a long time for the stuff that Pam and I've been doing, you've been hearing Pam worrying for a minute, probably from the first episode being like we're in this big bull market. It's been happening so long, it could stop at any time.

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC :

Bull markets on average last five to seven years. Yeah, just to give you some perspective on the cycles of things is bull markets in general and a bull market is when the stock market is progressively increasing every single year. Five to seven years we had an 11 year bull market before COVID happened.

Dyalekt :

Also just like total non sequitur, just cool stuff on the comments. I want a T shirt that says moral bankruptcies is a thing.

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC :

I love it. I love it for real. No, I give everyone a 20 k tax break. That's another thing Kaz mentioned in the comments. Can we talk about taxes? Can we talk about how the tax code is a little upside down? Also, is that a way to also potentially provide reparations to black Americans?

Dedrick Asante-Muhammad :

Sure. Well, let me also just go back to the inflation thing. I mean, yeah, so I won't say like, I haven't done a serious analysis to say this absolutely would not cause inflation but the reason I would doubt it is one blacks is only 13% of the population, right? So you're giving any is $20,000 is a lot for a community with a median household incomes 40,000, but it's still only $20,000 a year over 20 years. There's so much in terms of deficit of like just trying to move to a nicer house. It's not like all of a sudden that money is just flooding the economy. And now everybody's gonna charge that cheeseburger sandwich to be $15 because the whole economy is flush with funds. That's not true. You're actually just kind of a community asset poverty, you're just really slowly taking them out of asset poverty. So that's why I don't think it would be massive inflationary. Okay, everyone in America $20,000 for 20 years, yes, that could cause inflation. But if you give 13% Native Americans maybe one more percent 14% of the population after 20 years, particularly those who are in acid poverty already. There'll be a lot of buying essential goods I don't think would be inflationary, but there's more to say that we can jump over into taxes.

Dyalekt :

Oh, I was just gonna say to give an analogy being from the islands and stuff. So you know, if you make the coldest part of the ocean as warm as the warm part of the ocean, the average overall temperature will increase, but the overall total ocean temperature will increase.

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC :

No, no, you're right. Yeah, it's true

Dyalekt :

That ended up being more complicated

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC :

Like if you put a drop of cold water in a bathtub in a hot bathtub, it'll be fine. We'll still be fine. But yeah, you pay the scaremongering happens every time it looks like everyday people get ahead. I just wanted to point that comment out because I feel like that that is the crux of why people are very anti reparations why people are anti giving poor people money, why people are like, oh, well black people don't know what to do with money. And that's how they're poor in the first place. Like there's like a leap in logic that happens. The idea of someone just getting money for something happened.

Dyalekt :

Think about it like everyday people, everyday people with a song made by Sligh and the Family Stone talking about how black people are humans, which was then redone by, Arrested bDevelopment, deeper about how black people are people and then a couple of years after that after they revived the song It was a Jeep commercial. That was a luxury item that was selling for like nearly $100,000 that everyday people couldn't afford. No, I'm just saying that's how those leaps go.

Dedrick Asante-Muhammad :

Yes. And you know, someone put in the comments that you have to give an app first. And because I do think people try to make economic arguments against reparations, but I think really your use against reparations. Like I think a lot of people really don't feel that it's it's weird, because it's so contrary to what I think. But a lot of people don't think that black people today deserve any compensation for what has happened. What what is happening to them. Right, that's the basic case. And again, people didn't even think people thought it was wrong to say black lives matter much less to give reparations until like, this year now people are like, Oh, yeah, of course black lives matter. But like five years ago, you couldn't say that right? So things are shifting to a point you know, and people thought up until I don't know, I guess last month that was fine to have Confederate statues everywhere and have the Washington Redskins and all these. So a lot of I think most of it is just mental it just now is we're breaking through some of the small mental pieces, can we get to real substantive socio economic change that will make not just black lives matter? And not just that we think blacks are equal. But can we make blacks more equal socioeconomic?

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC :

How do we address that? So the Preach to the choir podcast is the first time you're listening to it. The whole goal of the Preach to the choir podcast is to bridge the understanding between the policies that have led to the racial divide in the art and media that has upheld it. And Dedrick, I think you in your last comment, you just mentioning that and saying like, hey, people don't think that black people deserve this. Right? They don't think that black people should have this. It's like unfathomable to them that that's okay for someone to just get money. Where does that come from? Like, what is the art in media that has been happening and how do we break that down and change the narrative

Dyalekt :

Can I see something That there is this like insidious thing about black folks that I've seen in all forms of media, where you exist in one of two spaces. You are either ultra successful or you are ultra poor and despondent and really put upon. I was thinking earlier when we're talking about stuff as I'm always like, I'm trying to think of like the art side of all of these things, and we're talking about the mediocre white guy stuff and how it's okay. And it's not a bad thing to be mediocre, just means you're a person. There are so many films from the 80s 90s 2000s about a white guy who's just an average white guy, he was a job or maybe they talk about their job and they need to get their stuff together. They're like 30 something they need to grow up and accept things. Yes, they're good movies. They're fun, they're engaging they make you think about your own growth as a person. The only time you will ever see a black lead in that same type is if one they are super destitute for two, super successful I'm thinking like Boomerang with Eddie Murphy. Eddie Murphy is this Big Huge super fancy thing. They make a big deal of his celebrity at the beginning of stuff. Or then you think of something like blank man where like, like super cool absolutely in the ghetto has absolutely nothing. It's really I'm struggling to think of like some guy who's you know, a person who's just you know, happens to be black. And it doesn't matter what their job is they just need to get their stuff together as a person. If you are not a high achiever as a black person and don't have a very specific like, this is the thing that made me start out for man, people have no love for you.

Dedrick Asante-Muhammad :

Well, and I think the reason there is no love is that most of society is bent toward believing the society they in is just in right. And so and that's the overall narrative, right? And so black people, Native Americans don't fit well into that because you start thinking about them for too long. It's hard to believe that Oh, America is a good place founded on democracy and freedom and these things not founded on genocide and slavery and and it's hard for economists to and there's more more conversations now bill sprigs used to be here. Howard University I think is a congress now to answer CIO, he wrote apart. And actually some, some young woman wrote a piece too, about how people don't end in their thinking of the foundation of economics completely ignore races, but in the context of the United States. So I guess my overall point is just highlighting that people don't want to admit. So people have hard time even bidding the depth of racial wealth inequality today. They want to believe America is equal now, and that so all and we all people opportunity, if we all just work hard, we will do better instead of recognizing the country is based on deep inequality. And that was created and invested in. And so if you want to change that, we have to create new structures, new societies and new investments.

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC :

So let's talk about that because we started talking about the tax code. And then we went back to inflation.

Dyalekt :

Like the stuff that Kas saying it's like amazing kick ass stuff that please do make this that thesis talking mostly about like social emotional intelligence and the inability of humans to naturally do these things, which means that we need policies right. That's Yeah, that's the good thing about policies like you know, we allow that to guide us.

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC :

Yeah, the policies guides us again, and the United States has put in policies and programs to create a white middle class. It happened right after World War Two, the housing subsidies, free college education, like the ability to build up businesses, all of this stuff happened, and the government subsidized all of it. So it's not unprecedented that that's happened in this country. Yes. So what what do we do now programs we need to build?

Dedrick Asante-Muhammad :

Well, I mean, in our 10 policy solutions report we did last year, you know, we mentioned reparations. So we just talked about hr 40. And that's something can be done. But most of our other policies were more broad policies to address racial economic inequality, right, everything from universal health care, because again, one of the major reasons that people go broke or declare bankruptcy is because of health care. And I think we're seeing this COVID crisis, the idea that your healthcare is tied to your job, it's just not a good one, right. And so we do need broad things like you know, universal healthcare has been supportive of Derek Hamilton's had this thing about baby bonds. He's got an individual investment, individual development accounts for all Americans, but that are focused much more on being progressive so that the lower wealth you are the more you get. You know, once you go in there is that our kind of 50s, 60s social welfare programs were designed to create income supplements to help low income people have a little bit more income, have a little bit more food because of this idea that that will help them be more financially secure. And a lot of people like Derek Hamilton and others have Friedman, what about freedom? What have you are recognizing we also need wealth supplements because it's really wealth that allows you to develop some type of financial security. So there are you know, advocating for individual development accounts, baby bonds, what have you, but you know, we have a list of you know, of 10 different policies that address some of these issues. And so it is gonna be a real like a radical change in this country to move from a country that's always had massive racial economic inequality for the last 40 years have been increasing concentrated wealth at the top, we're going to have to really change, make radical change, not just take down statues, though I get very excited about taking down statues, but we have to do more than taking down the statues, we have to start building up the economies of those who have been disenfranchised.

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC :

Right. And I think too, when we talk about wealth, because you're talking about income you're talking about wealth, and I think that it's really important to understand and recognize that like, yes, there's also an income gap. And I think what you described is like, that's the gap that people are trying to close. That's the gap that a lot of these government programs are trying to grow the close and they do it at the expense of someone being able to build wealth. I know so many public assistance programs, say like, you can only have $1,000 in your bank account, you're gonna get kicked out of this housing, you're gonna get kicked out this housing program. If you have more than X amount in your bank account. You don't qualify for food stamps.

Dyalekt :

Some unforeseen circumstance like everyone wanting your song or that you're good at doing some sort of movement type of thing. Yeah, you were really you don't have those incremental steps that will get you to a place where you're able to build wealth, right?

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC :

Yeah. So the idea of giving like every black American $20,000 a year, for instance, for a lot of black Americans, it'll be that ability to just let that money sit in their bank account for a little bit, right, and maybe pull from it instead of credit card to be able to cover emergency expenses, like just the feeling of knowing that all of your bills are going to be covered and you don't have to check your bank account to make sure you can pay them like that kind of financial stability allows you to actually be creative and be productive and be able to like go beyond survival mode.

Dyalekt :

I guess that's the real question is how can we make the American Dream go back to stability? As Kaz has been saying the whole time in the chat talking about how we need to let go of the zero sum. We need to let go of our selfishness the ego thing, the idea that if I get something that you are going to lose something Get back to figuring out what's enough for me and then being happy with being stable. Yeah, that's the dream. And once we're stable then we want other people to be stable rather than once we're stable, we want to find a new thing but on top of that,

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC :

right now we want the most money right? Not the reaction of most people and

Dedrick Asante-Muhammad :

so I like taking the term wealth and re appropriating it because wealth is oftentimes meant for a lot of people wealthy meaning to have a ridiculous amount of money that you know you can do whatever you want instead of wealth is you know, you know wealth, a goal of wealth to speed to provide some type of basic stability for you some type of security for you right so its wealth to be able to be a homeowner with a mortgage that you can pay off and have some money in the bank for you know, when you do lose your job it's not you know, ending to your homeownership or to your to life is you know it right everybody and I think some some progressive wealth became something you know, we don't want to talk about instead of No, we should be talking about it's talking about how everybody should have some level of wealth, but it doesn't mean we all want to be wealthy. That's wealthy, meaning the top 1%, right, you want to be wealthy. And so there's wealth in with your private assets. And then there's wealth and public assets. Right? So wealth is having a good public school system is having universal health care, is having safe streets and communities, right? We need to build that type of wealth. And that's one thing I think the racial wealth divide field is growing more and more into is highlighting this idea of public wealth that needs to be grown, not just the individual. But we need individual to but you know, but we also want this public because they all intersect.

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC :

Yeah, no, I love that. And I think that's the I feel like that's the difficult conversation because it feels so complex, right? It's like now when you say $20,000, and then you say, oh, but you have to pay for health insurance and childcare and your rent goes up 5% every single year. It's like, that's all the money. That's $20,000 right there. So you can't give people $20,000 and not have all the other stuff right and not have that progressive policy where we are taking care of people with that public wealth\.

Dyalekt :

That gets people to understand the stuff that you're talking about and what it really means to be well,

Dedrick Asante-Muhammad :

And what's interesting is you're saying you can't do that you can't give them $20,000. And have people have to spend all the money on this. But what we do now is they don't have that $20 thousand and still have to spend.

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC :

I'm saying I want it all Dedrick. Public wealth, Private Wealth. All of it.

Dedrick Asante-Muhammad :

Well, and you know, and I thing too America might be a little bit more awakened to a lot of these broad, universal wealth building programs, because it's becoming clear with this COVID crisis, how insecure we are. And as bad as the private market works, pre Covid, it was concentrating wealth, it's working worse now. Because even you know, you can open up restaurants But still, it's only 50% of the people are going, Oh, you know, you're not making a lot of tips. There aren't that many jobs. So I think and 2, I think it's also explains I didn't mean to jump into this COVID section. But this also explains why we are reacting so poorly or doing so badly with COVID. Because the peolpes only solution is I have to go back to my job. I have universal childcare, to take care of my kids, they have to go back to my job, and pay for childcare and go back to my job so I can make sure I keep healthcare, well, many countries, you get health care, you get child care, you get these things, while the country shuts down, and then allows the economy to grow. And I think we're gonna see that all the countries are going to recognize that we can't just run to our job and expect most of our social benefits to come from that.

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC :

Yeah, well, it's true. I mean, with 45 million Americans out of work. That's one out of every three adults in America doesn't have a job. Who has disposable income right now to bring the economy back. I think that what you say is very true, like COVID did reveal, and I think we've all been realizing this over the last couple months as COVID revealed how tenuous this country's economy actually was right. Like we're the wealthiest country in the nation. And just like if I said, there's no good reason why we can't support our entire citizenry. There's no reason why with the amount of wealth that we have and the amount of wealth that we generate on a regular basis that we can't have these public wealth services. So I guess what, you

Dyalekt :

Especially based on all the fantastic stuff that folks have been saying in the comments is like to try to, like really break it down into something simple is, you know, a fight ends in about a minute or two, a party can last all night. We want something to be sustainable, it needs to be cooperative.

Dedrick Asante-Muhammad :

Except that I think African Americans and Native Americans might say you've been in a 400 year fight. You know, and like we are still waiting for the party. And we're still waiting for that. But you know, thats what we want, the 400 year party, right? Which is going to require a you know, sustained on going investment, as well as you know, the individual initiative that comes out of all people.

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC :

Yeah, absolutely. I want to shout out 10Iron, having meetings you guys do. My goal is to have a mortgage by the end of next year,

Dyalekt :

we should highlight that and celebrate that, please.

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC :

That's amazing man. Homeownership in general and homeownership for POC is like a whole other thing. Right. And that's another part of building wealth is building wealth on a generational level.

Dyalekt :

Well, you know, we kind of talked a little bit over this weird we talked about the Holocaust and some reparations for that, but we didn't talk about like, you know, and that involved people getting not only, money and stuff, but also having a place to go. We're talking to a friend in Japan town area, yeah, Los Angeles and was talking about how when the Japanese people in that area have received reparations for their in turn, but what they did as a community is they basically built bands out they got a property in those areas and that was like their path to making that a viable,

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC :

they also created space right. When you own property, then I mean, eminent domain aside, you can't get kicked out. You get to stay there. You get to raise your family there, you get to raise your future generations family there, right? You get to choose what things come into the neighborhood, you get to choose what's in the grocery store.

Dyalekt :

Yeah, I mean things like that power community power even on a small level.

Dedrick Asante-Muhammad :

Yeah. You know, and you know, one thing is, in the 2008 piece I wrote, one of the things found interesting was that there was a plan at some point that the plantations, the slave owning plantations were supposed to be broken up among the slaves, and everyone was supposed to be given, you know, no plots of land where they could farm or what have you, but by the time of implementation, it got back to just giving back those lands to the slave owner, right. So you do need that land, you need that private property. Something that you can own you can use you can develop as well as the kind of social services that should be connected to that that actually give that property more value and allow you more leverage and what you can do with that

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC :

Oh, no, I think what you just said to, I think leads into the the non monetary side of reparations, right, we posted about an IG post. But if you give black people reparations, and the value of homes in black neighborhoods still isn't as much as homes in white neighborhoods, right? If a black person still can't rent from a white landlord because they're not going to let them right? If there is still, if the education system in black neighborhoods is still not as good as the education system in white neighborhoods, and we still have this, like class segregation thats going on. We haven't fixed anything by giving people a bunch of money, either. Well, guess what, this is all coming down to you. Right?

Dedrick Asante-Muhammad :

Well, I don't know. I mean, I am fairly materialist in that, I do think we will break down this class system if we break down that class, right. If blacks are, blacks are in asset poverty class, right, you know, where our capitalist system is. our education system reflects we get the worst because it's those with the least money get the worst health care system or police brutality. You know, whites get some police brutality, we just get the worst of it. Right? Yes, because we get we're most economically disenfranchised. I do think if if we do end that economic disenfranchisement, you will see some of the most radical change. I'm not saying everybody will love each other but I don't think thats the primary issue. I think we have to change the structures change the class inequality.

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC :

Running around the living room right now. I'm so excited by what you're saying, hold on, hold on.

Dyalekt :

This is a big thing. And this is the point that we really want to make the other people haven't been saying. The reason people say that reparations are complicated is because it's true. It is complicated requires a lot of different facets and a lot of different parts. But just because we don't have the other parts, it doesn't mean

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC :

again, give black people money.

Dyalekt :

Can do yeah, they're like, Oh, we have to figure out these other things. No, cuz like I know, this is a creative. This is a creative Yeah, always like I'm trying to wait for the perfect moment and the producers They put it up and I need the producers gonna do, right and then you just don't end up doing any of it. a concept and start dragging everything else along with you. It all works just by enacting the financial aspect of it, and the rest of it by necessity is going to have to come along with it. But if you don't do any of it, then we have nothing.

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC :

You're right. And I'm a complicated I admit it. So I'm like, okay, but you gotta give him money but also like mental health and education, all the stuff but

Dedrick Asante-Muhammad :

There's very little worse for your mental health than being broke all the time. It has all of your family and all your community broke, right? All of those things. It is like it's what brings communities down so if you get addressed that that really will help deal with others don't mean to say you know, just money will solve everything but it sure will change things. It's your and then we can do further advocacy, because you can get it go back to the beginning. I mean, like look, you don't like my $20,000 a year. 20 year plan Fine think of another one, but just say, Yes, we need reparations. And we need reparations with the goal of bridging that $10 trillion wealth gap. I don't care. Now, the rest of this details to me is, as you know, you set up a program that can do that. I don't care how it's done if we're really bridging this racial wealth divide through massive investment.

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC :

Yes. And I want to just shout out this comment reparations are owed, the government is not doing us a favor. This is a debt. The other thing too, is I think people do see reparations, like, oh, we're just like gifting this money to black Americans. No.

Dyalekt :

Well, it's also like when you talk about Native Americans and how they're often perceived, there are so many disputes that people like to get on both sides of where it's like, wait a second, there was already a treaty several hundred years ago, and what's going on is clearly 100% breaking it. And there's there's not a book that sits with us. So yeah, I feel that. Yeah,

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC :

yeah, absolutely. And I want to address the thing that's going back and forth between cost and convenience, financial, um, in terms of like, a bank made people not just have not just issues with controlling their finances long term. We were talking to the Financial Planning Association and their externship about your racial wealth divide and how to deal with and work with POC clients versus white clients. And I think one of the things that really came out of that conversation is this understanding that behavioral change needs to happen but more often than not POC did not get there because of behavioral issues and because of behavioral stuff. So yes, there's a lot of unpacking when it comes to imposter syndrome when it comes to generational trauma when it comes to generational habits have been passed down that are based on survival and not thriving but when it comes to like the root of why POC are behind in their wealth building it's because of policy period.

Dedrick Asante-Muhammad :

It's not the issue isn't the lack of discipline though we can all work on our discipline. Yeah.

Dyalekt :

I think that's the thing is like we all do, like this is the part where you're leading the

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC :

And this is the part about like having the ability and the space to make mistakes. We are all human, we all have problems with discipline, we all suck up all by too much money. We all spend too much money on Amazon. We all eat takeout too much. But if you have less money, you have less wiggle room to be able to do that and be able to bounce back and less room

Dyalekt :

to hear you left on it. Yeah, I'd be like, Oh, man, I spent too much on this thing. You just like I gotta keep

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC :

like, this is the day that I have to get through. So I'm gonna get through this day.

Dedrick Asante-Muhammad :

It's not a coincidence that the communities the ratio, the racial ethnic groups that are most disenfranchised are the ones that were most disenfranchised. I mean, it's not. It's not a coincidence, right? The indigenous people were, you know, had genocide put upon them not complete genocide, but it's x. And then we took their land, right? And we made great wealth out of it. We took Africans to make great, wealth, and then we say, Well, if you would just be more responsible with your personal funds, Native Americans would drink less if blacks would....stop it. like redistributes the money you stole and then start talking about I hear you talking about these things until because, yeah, so we have to get past those myths.

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC :

That's the cultural stuff, right?

Dyalekt :

And I do understand I really do like a lot about us needing to have discipline. And I think we need to think about the different meanings and levels of discipline. Disciplines meaning habits, and the things about these habits is a lot of disenfranchised communities, including especially black community, we have habits and disciplines that we've created out of necessity out of getting our getting our heads above water, and there are disciplines and there are effective habits, that work that a lot of folks don't have access to, and the education towards and the ability to have the room to work our ways through it psychological I think both of those things right I mean, simultaneously so I think a lot of what's been going on people talking about in the comments is like we all are kind of preaching to the choir the job about the nuances, like what key brought

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC :

Yeah, what Discipline really means that like, if you can't if you can't because I love this comic your basic needs aren't met, it's hard to worry about building wealth and I think two people think that may just be a discipline. It may just be like, Oh, well you just like do without for a little bit and then you can build wealth, right. I want to bring up I know we don't have too much time, but I love this. I don't know if you guys know the marshmallow experiment. Yeah. But um, the there was this experiment that was done the 70s that people tried to replicate where basically what they did was they put a five year old in a room and they put a marshmallow in front of them and they said, Hey, you can eat this marshmallow now five year old or if you wait five minutes, and and the marshmallows still here, you get two marshmallows, right? And that's like, sounds like a great deal for a kid. There's like funny videos of kids like wiggling around trying not to eat the marshmallow. And they thought this was an experiment in self discipline and delayed gratification. And they're like, Oh, well, the kids who waited and got two marshmallows ended up doing like better in life. They were more successful all of this stuff. Right? That was That that was a study that they were trying to prove. What they found when they revisited the marshmallow test was they found that the people who were able to wait for the next marshmallow grew up in families that had Well, the people who ate the marshmallow right away, grew up in families where they didn't know if they were going to get food the next day. So the thing about delayed gratification and discipline is, again, you have the room to practice you have the room to make mistakes and discipline works. When you are disciplined, then the thing that you think you're going to get out of it, you get out of it, right? Well, I also receive

Dedrick Asante-Muhammad :

I'm not really sure it's discipline, it's you're always used to getting food when you want it to be patient with food. And yeah, like that. That's that's how you live. And it's the idea is that you only get food, your food is a fleeting thing. And so you got to take advantage of it. That's not a lack of discipline. That's an effective way of living when you're living on the edge, the whole assumption is that how Some people are more disciplined. I've been around a lot of high income people and not that disciplined. It takes discipline to raise kids on welfare, a lot of discipline. Just so much false as false assumptions. It's been said on here wanting to know, victim blame instead of, you know, again, reparations. Is there something that should be repaired? Is there a debt that is owed? If so, it doesn't even matter. Like, let's say black people are all un discipline. It doesn't matter. You owe them money. You owe someone money I owe you're undisciplined. I'm not giving to you know, you owe them money, give them the money, you know,

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC :

Like American Express, you've been so undisciplined

Dyalekt :

been really irresponsible

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC :

to try and take your money back, because you have a debt

Dyalekt :

water experiment that was also going to check that out. I want to know Yeah, please let me know. I want to,

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC :

I want to see all of these experiments.

Dyalekt :

Because you know, I love my social behavioral psychologists. But to let folks know, I'm not an actual behavioral psychologist. So there's plenty of them that I don't know.

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC :

We should talk about that. But yeah, no. Okay, so then we only have like five minutes left.

Dyalekt :

I want to grab a couple of comments, because I saw some side by side that explained a lot of this stuff. Yeah. So let's be clear, we cannot educate our way out of 400 years of inequity. Reparations are owed. And there is no one size fits all item is the combination of it.

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC :

Yeah, so it sounds like we all agree that we need to start with reparations, and giving black people the money that they're owed. And then from there, we will all have the bandwidth to actually create a more progressive economy for everyone.

Dedrick Asante-Muhammad :

And the ides of starting with reparations, I mean, I'm for Reparations, but I'm not just sitting around waiting for Reparations. Yeah. to address this by all means necessary. So yes, we We should have reparations Yes, I like working with people on personal finance for African Americans who are in acid poverty. Because until we get the reparations do we get things we need to figure out what are the best economic moves for us in this current situation? It's moving on all fronts.

Dyalekt :

And education we can start doing education stuff now. We can have it go to stuff now we can do stuff and we can make art about it. Talking about the heart supports all that stuff. We can make the art about it now. Hey, film writers, please write that personal color, mediocre person where the job is not the poinht of it Just needs to get their stuff together so that the person they love can love. See that make it make it cute and fun. It's so true to me, architects, writers and artists.

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC :

More black Architects on TV. And journalists like columnists who write about bullshit,

Dyalekt :

right? Yeah, what's that wrong guy? A journalist Yeah. I think we're writing it now we're writing it now.

Dedrick Asante-Muhammad :

We're gonna write these shows and sitcoms, what have you if we even do black architects? Can you please show me a black architect that's still living with the racial wealth divide by resources than the white architect who's making more investment into their family and friends than into the stock market because of the racial wealth divide. Can we have even for the black elites? We don't even like we tried to make it race neutral with the black elites. Instead of recognizing the mind goes down the economic ladder. It's not something you escape once you have some

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC :

Jay Z didn't become a billionaire cuz he was like really good at shit. I mean that too but it also took some people. Yeah.

Dedrick Asante-Muhammad :

Yeah. I mean, Jay Z is the irregular like a superstar that actually more earns their money that as much as it could be earned. Then other than that, they had a really unique, ridiculously ridiculous talent like Chris Rock used to say, you know, like he lives in the same block as just like white dentist, like no one knows his white dentist is known for being particularly great at being a dentist. He's supposed to be one of the greatest comics, but it's that you know, racial wealth inequality, systematic structure on the quality that has someone who's so uniquely great with someone who's pretty mediocre in their field living in the same neighborhood.

Dyalekt :

Yeah, one thing I'd like to share that into like, let go of all everybody's feelings about artists, we all feels like stuff about artists. The fact that Jay Z had to be famous to be rich is real. good. Not good. Like doesn't matter.

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC :

Ultimately, at the end of the day, I love it. I want to end with this thought we can demand and fight for what is owed to us. And we're also not waiting for people to save us.

Dyalekt :

Mm hmm. And then the thing you know, this year, we have to work twice as hard to get half as far I've heard that run so many times. And while it's true in the thing that it is, it doesn't have to be the thing that we accept. I want to get stuff for the thing that I work for. And I do talk about like discipline and unlearning. It's really tough for me personally even to know and say and do stuff where I know where I'm at work twice as hard and be like, well, I want to get paid twice as much. Yeah, I'm always afraid to ask but I feel that you that you shouldn't. Again, you know, when we talk about things like disciplines and stuff like that, it's like getting this thing in ourselves, no matter where we are on the spectrum. We're, you know, white folks and non black people who are like, I just need to know what enough is. It's the same thing for black folks we need to know enough is whichever side of the fence.

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC :

Yes, I know. We wish we could stay here for another hour today.

Dedrick Asante-Muhammad :

Yeah, I gotta get my daughter to the first post Covid dentist appointment. End the show

Dyalekt :

It's been a longer than usual. Thank you guys. Thank you, everybody, for all of the stuff that you've been sharing. I wanted to let you know about the song we're gonna be playing at the end is an artist from Brooklyn, New York PS dot with the song reparation from the album truly yours. And we'll check you guys next time. Thank you so much. I really appreciate all the comments. Y'all This is tough, but it's beautiful. It's, it's gonna be alright, we're making that I put it on the slide. If it's on Instagram to Brooks Brothers who made all their money off of slavery. They just filed for bankruptcy. Thanks, y'all. Peace.